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Hoosier Musings on the Road to Emmaus

Tuesday, July 25, 2006

Stones in the Road

When Jesus came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"
"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Luke 19:37-40

I will follow Jesus as my Lord and Savior-- as he calls me, and as well as I am able by his grace. If that makes me no better than a baptized stone (as a commenter suggested), then so be it.


Anonymous Mark J. said...

What a neat image! No matter who--or what--we may be, all of God's creation has a place, and sings out God's glory.

Even though my anatomy apparently qualifies me for priesthood, I'd happily join you in stone-hood, Jane.

July 25, 2006 10:51 PM  

Anonymous Bob said...

Which would make us both stoned, wouldn't it.

Down, Bob.

July 25, 2006 11:04 PM  

Blogger The Proto-Seminarian said...

I'll be a baptized stone!

July 26, 2006 6:11 AM  

Blogger Warwickensis said...

I'm glad you find my comment so amusing. It demonstrates the levity with which you treat the ordinances of God.

I have no doubt that there are competent women preachers, teachers, leaders, guides, since I have benfitted immensely from such valuable and God-fearing ministry.
I am convinced passionately that the ministry of women has been much neglected by the Church.

However the Church cannot just change the rules just to play fair and reverse the playing down of the relevance of women's ministry. The fact is that women cannot be ordained priest, not my words but the words of God through His Church.

The reason why women cannot become priests?

God has far more important things for women to do than distribute sacraments. What they are I don't know, though I intend to find out.

But gosh, men and women are different! They are different physically, they are different mentally, and they are different spiritually. It stands to reason that their roles within the Church are different.

So yes, physical appendages do affect ones ability to be ordained. They are not however, the cause of this disability.

July 28, 2006 2:46 PM  

Blogger Jane Ellen+ said...

Warwickensis: Though I cannot speak for others, I did not intend anything in my post other than a straightforward response to your rather terse comment.

Though you are not able to recognize the validity of my orders, please be assured that (although I try not to take myself too seriously) I do not treat the ordinances of God or my service in his church lightly at all. And I apologize if anything I said led you to believe otherwise.

July 29, 2006 5:56 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

July 29, 2006 8:43 PM  

Anonymous Mark J. said...

Okay, serious question here: I cannot find where God's word forbids women's ordination. I just don't see the phrase "thou shalt not" anywhere near "ordination" or "women."

Can anyone help me?

July 29, 2006 8:53 PM  

Blogger Warwickensis said...

Well, Mark_J, now you're opening a can of worms, which it wouldn't be fair to spout all over poor Jane's blog comment spot. She's sick enough of reading me and my militancy. I shall endeavour to be brief.

Scripture (namely in Paul's letters to St Timothy, I Tim iii specifically)tells us that a priest (episkopos used interchangeably with presbyteros)is absolutely expected to be male.
The Gospels point to an unequivically male Christ whom the priest represents at the altar and according to St Paul (I Cor xi.7) women cannot make that reflection.
(Please note that Christ has to be male for both sexes to be involved in the Incarnation.)

I confess quite humbly that I am no Bible scholar and others better than I have put their arguments forward, but I have sufficient understanding of the Tradition upon which Anglicanism and Episcopalianism are built to know that God has not, and does not now ordain women.

If it were true that women were to become priests, then why have they only been introduced in the last 30 years. Why should the philosophical changes of last century take precedence over the previous 19?

Certainly the allowance of Gentiles into Christian society was given directly by divine intervention to both St Peter in the Acts and St Paul elsewhere who certainly criticises St Peter for regarding Gentiles as second class citizens. Thus the great acceptance of anybody as a Christian slave free, Jew, Gentile, male, female. This is where Galations iii.28 fits in.

This has not happened with the priesthood of women. There has been no Divine Revelation to the whole Church, rather it has been a philosophical fashion to be inclusive and thus chuck out the doctrines of the Church one by one. By far the overwhelming majority of us believe the ordination of women to be wrong to be wrong and a schismatic issue which puts up barriers between Christians. You may say that we are the ones causing difficulties, but we haven't changed our doctrine and remain on the same course as we did before.

You also made a comment that ordination was purely a human construct. Then I suggest you read St John xx.19-23 and see the behaviour of the Lord, then Acts vi.1-7 to see the pattern being maintained. Ordination is a Sacrament after all.

Now, after all this, Jane. Further to filling up your blog comments with this, I should also like to apologise for my terse little comment about you not taking the business seriously. I'm sure that insofar as it is possible you are acting with integrity in the theology that you have. However, your idea that stones can cry out, albeit perfectly biblical still means that they cannot be baptised. Likewise for all your preaching and teaching and praising God, I regret that you still cannot be a priest.

I have no wish to close this on a negative note. I sincerely wish you well and hope that the barriers between us may come down soon.

July 30, 2006 2:32 PM  

Blogger Jane Ellen+ said...

Warwickensis: Thank you for your comments. We could get into a debate here, of course; but we could go on forever, and I honestly believe we both have better things to do. If you would like to continue that discussion, I would suggest you shift it over to Mark's blog, where he posted his initial comments.

I will offer two items for your consideration: first, the first woman was ordained to the Anglican priesthood not 30, but more than 60 years ago, in 1944; and it occurred in China, not the United States.

Secondly, while I cannot speak for all women clergy, I will say that my eventual decision to seek Holy Orders was in no way motivated by some misguided desire to "even the score," or to broaden opportunities for women, or any other supposed feminist agenda. Had that been my desire, I was already qualified for honest work which meets that criteria (my undergraduate degree is in metallurigical engineering). As to what my thoughts and reasons were, I would be glad to share them with you, if we ever had an opportunity and you were interested; but I do not feel that this is an appropriate venue.

God's peace be with you, brother. I too pray for an end to our divisions.

July 30, 2006 9:22 PM  

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